(This could go on at length, I assure you, but I cut it down to just a few key points. Trust me, I have many more thoughts on this matter, but I’m sparing you.)
I don’t have anything against others’ marriages, I just don’t think the “institution” is right for me.
Love, undying love, lifelong commitment, sharing a bed, these are not things I resist, not in the least. I might even see myself living with someone, though I do prefer the idea of maintaining separate bedrooms, if not separate (but nearby) homes.
Carol Burnett once said something to the effect of her notion of the perfect marriage being one with a best friend who was a great lover, and who lived next door. I couldn’t agree more.
Too many people lose themselves in their marriages, and we’re supposed to think it’s beautiful and wonderful when people “complete” each other, but it’s not. It’s childish and stupid. Being a whole person is the greatest thing you can achieve in your life. To be absolutely certain of who and what you are will be something you can never, ever regret. Our goal should be to find someone who accepts and embraces that, all of that.
I imagine the married lives of friends – the chaos and demands of everyday life, how overwhelming it all is. And yes, climbing into bed with someone who makes it all go away for just a little while, that can be an incredible feeling. But sometimes, having the option of rolling out of bed and walking away to your little corner of the world, where all the noise and craziness can bleed away into silence and space… it can be the tether that keeps you bound to reality.
I don’t want to upset the masses by declaring marriage, as it stands today, an antiquated notion, but let’s face it. It is.
Chris Rock has a skit he does on marriage where he mocks the notion of marriage today being held “sacred.” He lambastes the resistance to legalizing gay marriage by saying that a country that makes “The Bachelor” and “Who Wants to Marry A Millionaire?” a national phenomenon doesn’t even begin to hold marriages as sacred. He is, essentially, calling it hypocrisy. Again, I couldn’t agree more.
I agree with all these things. I think the institution of marriage, with its “love, honour, and cherish” vows is, I hate to say it, absolutely bullshit in this day and age.
If only devoting your life to someone could be as pathetically simple as that.
What we need is a reality check. Nowhere in the marriage vows, for instance, is the subject of sex even mentioned. Nowhere does it say, “I promise to keep giving you head, so long as we both shall live.” Nowhere does it say, “I promise to always keep seeking new ways to make you feel like I value you.”
Nor does it discuss communication. Nor does it mention learning complete vulnerability with your spouse-to-be. Nor does it mention anything at all about working together to ensure financial stability in the relationship. In fact, it says the opposite – that you’re obligated to stay, in richness or poorness. Right. You put me in the poorhouse, baby, you’re out the fucking door – that’s the reality.
If the “love, honour, and cherish” bullshit was working, maybe we wouldn’t have a divorce rate that has climbed steadily for the last three decades.
I have no doubt – none whatsoever – that I will eventually have a relationship that consumes me with passion on every level: intellectual, sexual, emotional, and possibly even spiritual. I’ve been there before, I’ll be there again. But I will never, ever insult them or what we share by submitting to marriage as it now stands. If I do “marry,” it will be in a civil ceremony that’s likely not going to be legally binding, and the words will be of my choosing.
I’m a product of divorce. I’m the product of a marriage that disintegrated over its 22 years. Money, food, and a lack of sex drove them apart. That’s not an anomaly. Hell – that’s the modern way, baby.
Everyone’s all so up in arms about standing in front of a crowd of family and friends and declaring their love for one another. What about also declaring the pursuit of a healthy life together, and demonstrating that passion in take-it-to-the-bank raw physicality – and often? What about promising to stay on the same page financially, to maintain open and honest communication in every single way, from dollars to doubts? How about making trust and vulnerability not only ideals in the relationship, but also required?
Some people will say, “Hey, well, that’s implied.” And implying it is working so fucking well, isn’t it?
Yeah, I’m opposed to marriage. Frankly, I’m holding out for something better.
For those counting, that’s 30 consecutive days with rain here on the Wet Coast. The sun’s lingering for a minitease this morning, tho. Praise be.
The Cunting Linguist
It seems I always have something on the tip of my tongue.
Marriage is a legal distinction. It is a ratification of a relationship by the government. With that tax (yes, you pay a fee), comes certain benefits. Those benefits include: automatic rights to make medical decisions for you spouse (getting into a hospital room because you are family); automatic joint ownership with right of survivorship; automatic inheritance without using the probate court; health care coverage; survivor benefits. These are a just the ones I can think of at a moments notice. (And you “civil” ceremony is still legally a marriage.)
Marriage does not change the person you are with. Marriage shouldn’t change your relationship. I was married for 12 years. It collapsed because she couldn’t/wouldn’t deal with the aftermath of a serious accident and left me emotionally and physically** Is that “marriage’s” fault? Fuck, no! It was mine for choosing to marry her. Will I get married again? I don’t plan on it. And if marriage is so “bad” what do homosexuals want the right to do it?
An idea that a friend of mine had is that you should be able to get a marriage license for a certain number of years. After all, it is essentially just a contract. The shorter the time frame the more expensive the license fee. There would be substantial penalties for early termination without cause (the no fault divorce). It would be renewable or the two of you could simply part ways.
**She rationalized her decision with the help of a shrink. Should I get on the couch for a “Tom Cruise rant” about the “quackery” of the mental health profession? No. I think they help more than they hurt, but people are people and only hear what they want to hear. Should the folks who seek mental health help be forced to listen (and hear) what the doctor has to say?
Yeah. It doesn’t really seem to work does it? I mean we’re in a good place, but we have to stay conscious about it. Its hard, cause I think there’s a continuum of pairbonding, some pairbond more than others, but the choice to be non-monogamous isn’t honored in our society. We are fed a load of crap about it from the “purity” of it all, to “Who wants to marry a millionaire” to making it illegal for gays and lesbians to marry. I don’t know. I don’t know if I’d get married again were I single, but I do think I’d pair bond. I like having a partner.
Sorry about the rain. We’re on 60 days without. S’gonna be a great summer down here.
Goose
While I agree the idea of marriage is quite antiquated in the traditional sense… well… I’m not sure I agree with what you wrote. It reads a lot like something I would have written myself ten years ago. But that was ten years ago and so while I agree… my take is a little different and based more on experience than stereotypes…. On the other hand, being married for me is ABSOLUTELY about the legal issues, especially since my husband is still military. That part, unfortunately, isn’t likely to go away….
I’m glad this is controversial… I wanted it to be. I took an extreme point of view because it’s FUN to be extreme.
Ultimately, there’s a very real chance I’ll marry — for legal reasons. And that’s why gays NEED the right to marry, because it’s bullshit that only spouses can get into the hospital, et al.
The fact that it IS a legal contract and a financial boon is PRECISELY why I think the marriage vows are so utterly full of shit. Let’s take that reality check and cash it and bring a little realism back into the ceremony — after all, maybe getting people back down to earth will result in fewer marriages falling apart.
Or maybe we need to be realistic about “unto death do we part.”
Goose — I’ve heard far too many mothers say they might not have kids if they had it to do over again, and too many married folk say they think they might not ever marry again. It’s certainly why I’m realistic about all the negatives. I KNOW there are positives… but the question is, which carries more weight? From my lofty single perch, I know what I think now. Maybe when I fall in love again, that might change, but I dunno.
Prof — I’m not suggesting all marriage is bad, but it sure as shit ain’t my cup of tea, and I stand by that. I think there’s far fewer people being HONEST about whether they’re really cut out for marriage than I wish there were.
Semsex — I was in a longterm relationship (seven years) that culminated in a proposal and me walking away, because I finally realized that the naive notion of being 60 with him would never, ever happen. I’m older than you are, at 32, and my opinion has never wavered on marriage. But I’m all about commitment, and can see myself committing to someone for life. I’m not opposed to marriage per se, but I’m opposed to what we, as a society, perceive it to be — and the vows we make, those are what offend my nature.
I would rather have the option of selecting a “civil union” than having to choose something convoluted with so many ideologies and pie-in-the-sky fantasies. People need to be more realistic about this shit, that’s all.
Fun discussion. I love controversy! WHEE! Gonna get me a much bigger paddle so I can stir even more shit. Tee hee.
Apollo and I have been to three marriages over the last fortnight, and at each one we turn to each other, nod, and say, “yep – Civil Union and elopement”. Here in NZ not only same-sex couples can get civilly unioned, but opposite sex as well. Given that we don’t want the stereotype of marriage upon us (and we’re not religious and don’t want kids), we think that the Civil Union is ideal. We get the legal rights of marriage, but are also showing our support for SSM, and our commitment to non-traditional ideas (kink, poly etc).
I think some of your comments are very likely to cause dissent, but overall I agree. To make any relationship work (married or not), there has to be communication, good sex, and love.
Serious commitment between two people is an antiquated notion? That’s a sad thought.
For me, marriage hasn’t meant losing myself. Do I need to make compromises and consider other people’s feelings before acting? Yes. Is that bad? Not to me, no.
oy, sink that ax into the sacred cow! I think the modern fantasy of marriage, esp how it’s portrayed by the media and entertainment industry, is really corrosive. One reason Goose and I wrote our own vows was because we didn’t like the traditional ways of talking about marriage. We didn’t have a church wedding, but we had a ceremony and I do think it was a powerful thing to stand up in front of our friends (and a few family members) and make a kind of public declaration of our intent. There’s something about getting together (by “marriage” or not) that isn’t just between two people but a social moment – an optimistic statement, I daresay – about commitment that can be about more than just accepting a stale tradition. On the whole though, women have been getting shafted by the romantic vision of marriage for centuries, so I say: resist resist resist, then proceed thoughtfully.
[gander]
I can see how marriage is not for everyone, but did you know that studies show that married people live longer, are healthier, have less depression and mental illnesses?
Makes you wonder.
Marriage is idealistic. It’s a lot of hard work, but so is anything you want good, long term results from. Just like a business investment, it won’t work if you up and leave at the first sign of financial difficulty or boredom.
The vows don’t cover everything, but if they did, it would take too long, and no one would stick around for the party.
I’m married and I’ve stuck with my marriage even when I wanted out soo badly, and I am so thankful that I stayed. I think if we weren’t married, if we were just living together, I would have left easily on numerous occasions. Marriage is more binding.
I want to stay with my husband for as long as I can, but if I ever come to a point in my life where I feel I’ve done all I possibly could to save the marriage, but it was now dead, I would leave. I would not let the vows I made once ruin my life. But while I am married, I will give this man my love, my time, my efforts, and even make sacrifices to make his life better. He does the same for me. It’s called love and sharing.
It also really helps to have an open marriage, where both parties are free (to a certain extent and with an agreement) to see other people, if the occasion arises.
It takes humitily and trust and a lot of love, but the fun and the bonding it brings can be worth it if you’re up for it.
Sleeping with people outside your marriage (on occasion, if the situation arises) doesn’t necessarily mean that you do not love your spouse. I firmly believe that we were meant to need people outside of our marriages/unions/partnerships so that we do not depend completely on one person and place all the emotional responsibility and burden on them alone.
It’s happened to friends of mine and their marriages survived fine, even thrived under those circumstances. Both spouses were in agreement and there was a lot of honestly and love.
Variety is the spice of life.
“I’m a product of divorce. I’m the product of a marriage that disintegrated over its 22 years. Money, food, and a lack of sex drove them apart. That’s not an anomaly. Hell – that’s the modern way, baby.”
Just to quote you – this is the part that stood out the most for me. What I’m curious to know – do you think your opinion on marriage would be different if you had experienced the other extreme? What if you observed your parents in a beautiful partnership? friendship? lovers? And even though life is not without its challenges – you watched your parents conquer them together? “through sickness and in health… yadda yadda yadda”
Though I believe marriage is an antiquated notion – watching my parents maintain this partnership for over 35 years & watching them love, honour, cherish, and support the other even through hardships inspires me to enter such a “traditional” institution.
Just my $0.01 😉
Cheers,
Sarah
I totally agree with your rejection of marriage. I have been living with my partner for 8 1/2 years and we have no intention of getting married, especially not while gay people are denied the same right.
What I would really like is a civil partnership so that we have legal rights with each other. People who claim they’re just getting married for the legal rights – well then, why do you have a wedding? a big ceremony?
I think that declaring your love in front of all your friends and family is highly embarassing. I don’t feel the need to have loads of attention and ‘be a princess for a day’ – the idea makes me feel sick. I also reject the idea that any authority, civil or religiou, has the right to legitimate my relationship and tell me who I can or can’t have sex with.
We have been together longer than any of my married friends and yet they think their relationship is superior to ours. And they think they have the right to pressure us into doing it.
I guess I live in a different world than you and the rest of your readers. I believe in the sanctity of marriage. Rock makes a good point in that people no longer treat it as sacred; however, that doesn’t mean it isn’t.
The church I go to sometimes seems like a marriage club. Everybody’s getting married, frequently at alarmingly young ages. I work in an industry populated by married men.
I fully hope that I will someday get married.
On the other hand, my views on the ‘legal institution’ aspect of marriage are a bit on the radical side. My take on the equal marriage debate satisfy neither side. Frankly, I don’t think the idea that the government wants to decide who can or can’t get married is laughable. I’ll pay my taxes like everybody else, but it’s none of the government’s business who I’m sleeping with.
A wedding should be a public statement of a couple’s committment to stay togteher and a celebration of that committment. What does that have to do with the government?
Everyone including and before Sarah Jayne, my posting this morning was in response to your comments, so I’m gonna be lazy and ignore them here, but I had some serious food for thought and have still been thinking at even greater lengths on this topic as a result of your input, so thank you. 🙂
Eccentrica — Love what you say about “If gays can’t marry, I won’t.” Interesting. True.
I have to say that one of the things I love about Oprah Winfrey is that she’s so prominent about being in a longterm relationship and absolutely refusing to marry. That’s fucking brilliant. You see it with successful men all the time, but I’m thrilled there are successful women coming out of the woodwork and saying, “No, not me,” without being fag-haggish a la Marlene Dietrich or something.
It enrages me that you need to be marry someone to have information access in the hospital, though, and I hope like hell we change that shit. Who knows what’ll happen.
SJ — I will say this, I’m a strong woman. I’ve been through a lot, overcome a lot, but I’ve never had that feeling of knowing people would be there for me — I’ve always felt like I had to do it on my own, and I think my parent’s marriage left me feeling alone on some level that might just never go away, and that’s what being raised in that environment can do to a kid. I’d be an INCREDIBLY different person had I been exposed to positive love at home with a relationship that was open and nurturing. Trust issues will haunt me for a long time, I’m sure, and I can easily blame them for it.
All the problems in my life, every one of them, are connected to my childhood. I don’t BLAME my parents, but I don’t absolve them — they were both raised by really dysfunctional families, and I KNOW my folks loved me, were proud of me, and had high hopes for me, and I know they did the best they could with what they had. Doesn’t make me any less of a mess. It just is what it is. Our upbringings shape us. I’m getting past it, and it’s made me a very empathetic person, but yeah, it’s a lot of work.
Virgin — I can’t argue much of that, either. It’s a difficult topic. I don’t believe marriage IS sacred anymore, and that’s society’s doing, but I believe people should be STRIVING to make it sacred. It’s a real problem, with financial, moral, social, and personal implications, and people have far oversimplified it, leading to where we are now.
It’s like people have gotten together to make marriage a combination of a Barbie Dream Wedding and a Marriage for Dummies book or something — it NEEDS TO BE MORE. But until people get their shit together, it’s just going to continue suffering.
Still, I’d rather let my love speak for itself. Not marrying doesn’t make my emotions any less valid, nor any less pure. I’m sick and tired of needing to be ethically approved of by the church or the state. I want to make my decisions on my terms, and value it because it’s my values and not some cookie-cutter ethical belief imposed upon me.
My standards, my morals, my respect for others… they’re about as lofty as they fucking come, I just don’t desire to have to prove it in any “authorized” arenas. I run into the same problem with people doubting my intellect because I don’t have a university degree on my wall. When will people learn that not everything needs to be board-certified to be valid?
That’s what pisses me off.
________________________________________________
Anyhow, I just wanted to engage people in debate about this, and I took a militant stance to do so. I’m enjoying the fall-out. It’s intriging.
I have to agree on the hypocrisy point of view. The euphemistically spun “Defense of Marriage” act was the only thing that really got me riled up… so much so that I printed out big letter sized sheets that said “Keep up the Discrimination! Vote yes on issue 3!” and “Gays are icky! Vote yes on issue 3!” (or whatever number the issue was… i forget)
Anyway… one cute story about marriage… my ex mother in law (who just turned 55) is still friends with two people she went to high school with. These two people have been dating exclusively since the early 70’s. I can’t help but feel they got it right, because all this time they have lived in separate houses and let each other live their own lives, yet they always make time for each other, and have never forgotten the simple romance of going out on dates. I love seeing them together, because they are the most affectionate and giggly-in-love people you’ll ever meet. I can’t take my eyes off of them, they’re like teenagers with crushes on each other, even after 35 years of being together.
Only about three years ago did they finally get married. I feel you, Steff, on when you say you’re holding out for something better. I’m about as bitter as they come about marriage right now, but I can’t help but think that if there is something better, those two found it, and are a perfect example.
this has been my opinion on marriage from a very young age. i don’t think that my parents, the state, or someone’s god should be able to dictate what i do with my life. i have been in a relationship for 8 years. when we were younger my partner was all about marriage. when i graduated from school he thought we were going to get a place, get hitched, and have babies. he was not pleased to find out that NO! i am going to get a job and working on my career and myself! we subsequently broke up for about 3 months and he got together with someone else. this person was ready to marry him after 3 months AND she had a baby. he saw the grass on the other side and decided maybe it wasn’t so much greener over there. he had been force fed this idea of relationships all his life and he never stopped to think about what he really wanted. who he really was. after all of this we got back together and after 5 years of not living together, we moved in together. after some adjusting we settled into sharing our space. we have never been happier!!!
we are in love! we are happy! but you know that’s still not enough for some people. we worked through a VERY difficult point in our relationship and STILL that is not enough for some people. they still ask us “when are you getting married” and grab my hand and say “what, no ring”. that is what makes me sick about marriage is that people don’t care if your in love or not. if you have been together for a number of years they feel like you HAVE to do it. we never hear “wow, you guys look so happy” or “you are so in love and i think that’s great”.
i love my guy. and that is sacred to me. not some gawdy ceremony put together to PROVE to other people you are in love. i don’t need to prove that to anyone but him. and if he buys it then that’s all i need.